Date   

Re: Android Phone with Depth Mapping Question

Laurent DOLDI (Toulouse, France)
 

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 01:19 PM, David Starkman wrote:
do any of you have a very new model that has the depth mapping and good specs that is smaller than 6" that you would recommend?
Two months ago I purchased a Huawei P30 Pro New Edition, its 3 cameras are excellent (sometimes better than my Pentax K3-III DSLR body costing 2000 Euros!).
I has Google services installed (as opposed to the P40 pro etc.), Play store etc.
The aperture mode activates the TOF sensor which (also in landscape mode) embeds a depth map into the JPG file.
And SPM recognizes such depth maps and extracts them to create a stereo image with the deviation of your choice.
Also it has a X5 lens OPTICALLY stabilized and very good (135 mm equivalent).
Plus an ultra wide angle lens, and naturally a regular wide angle sensor.
Takes also RAW images, actually in DNG format which can be developed with old software versions.
510 Euros in France.
 


Re: Android Phone with Depth Mapping Question

Depthcam
 

Your best bet is to check out Looking Glass forums for the phones they consider most compatible.  Not all phones produce equal quality depth maps and LG points out that some give very poor results.

So it's best you check with them for the phones they recommend.

Francois


Re: 3d-printed stereoscope update

Depthcam
 

> I’ll just say that Matej’s viewer is the best news MF3D has had in years


But the point here is MF3D users would be better served with a viewer that is entirely optimized for MF3D rather than a modular one that is also designed to accommodate digital formats. I think that one viewer for each specific format would be more economical than one that tries to satisfy various users since most people will only have one use for their viewer.

I think the whole notion of a modular viewer stems from the fact that Matej designed an MF3D module for his original ZX viewer.  This module turned out to be a compromise because many MF3D users wanted a shorter focal length.  Now Matej is proposing 75 to 80mm for MF3D, but still suggests 100mm for the digital back.  Therefore having this as a modular system just complicates matters and brings up the price needlessly.

Francois

Francois


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

George Themelis
 

Here is my test image.

 

The details are shown in the attached pictures.

 

I used one camera. For the fun of it, I just used forward movement in one pair (zero  stereo base). The second one was taken with B~50mm stereo base and z = 100mm (I exaggerated the forward motion to clearly see the errors).

 

If you look at the image, you can see that the infinity is perfectly aligned, but the chair, at about 3m from the camera, clearly has changed in size.

 

SPM proves pretty much useless in aligning this. See what you can do Antonio.

 

George

_._,_._,_

 


Re: Android Phone with Depth Mapping Question

John Rupkalvis
 

David ~
I use a couple of 3-D phones that I like very much. They are both
very high resolution and have great 3-D. One is the IQH made by JS
Digitech: https://iqh3d.com/product/iqh3d-qphone/. The contact there
is Loyal Haylett, CEO IQH loyalhaylett@gmail.com
The other is the JS Digitech itself (Jaishun Digitech):
https://www.js3d.cc/ The contact there is the CEO, Zhou Fenghua.
His e-address is: <export@js3d.cc>

On 6/13/21, David Starkman via groups.io <reel3d=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
My current Android phone is over 5 years old and I'm ready to update it with
a new phone. I'd like to get a new model that has the depth mapping feature
(Portrait mode?) as I ordered the Looking Glass Portrait and this will be a
helpful combination. ( I got to see a Looking Glass over the weekend that a
friend got, and was pretty impressed. However, I ordered mine near the end
of the campaign, so it might be a couple of more months or more until I get
mine. )

So my question for the group is do any of you have a very new model that has
the depth mapping and good specs that is smaller than 6" that you would
recommend? I prefer a smaller size phone, and the new models have become way
to large for the top of the line models, but there are so many out there to
compare I thought maybe some of you would have some suggestions based on
your experience.  Thank You! DDDavid





--
John A. Rupkalvis
stereoscope3d@gmail.com

[image: Picture]


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

George Themelis
 

It’s a nice stereo pair.

 

  • The top looks perfectly aligned, but the bottom is off a bit. You can tell that the bottom is not aligned because there is a pattern of black and white stripes that does not match. I used the vertical arrow key and estimated the difference in height to be 4 pixels. 4 pixels/800 (the vertical resolution) = 0.5%

 

  • I think this image will benefit from adjusting the stereo window. I moved the images by 16 pixels to move the subject to the stereo window so now your daughter’s left leg is going a bit through the window.

 

  • I tried SMP autoalignment and SPM made a few changes, including this one (x=-30, y = 2) but now there is a violation of the stereo window. X = -16 is better. See the attached SPM alignment report.

 

This is an interesting example because the misalignment is only visible at the bottom. The top has no real details and the viewer does not pay attention to it. I would adjust the vertical alignment to align the bottom and forget the rest. Of course, there is still an error but not really visible. I am attaching the version of this image after SPM alignment but setting the x and y values where I like them the best.

 

George

 

From: William Kiraly
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 7:05 PM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

 

 

 


Re: 3d-printed stereoscope update

 

I’ll just say that Matej’s viewer is the best news MF3D has had in years. I have one of the current versions and will order more when the wider angle versions are available. 

My latest work is doing close-ups in medium format, using 120mm macro lenses, and those images look stunning with the deWijs 100mm lenses. 

The viewer is nicely designed—a lot of thought went into it. Smooth focus, a lens cover that’s easily detached, and the system for adding and removing attachments works beautifully.

The viewer works wonderfully for my needs, and I’m thrilled that there’s finally an MF3D viewer available. 


Bob Venezia
Seattle, Washington

On Jun 12, 2021, at 4:07 PM, Depthcam via groups.io <depthcam@...> wrote:

Now that I see that those high resolution displays are only 1440x1440, my enthusiasm has gone down.  This means that such a display cannot even achieve full HD (1920 x1080p per eye), which other commercially available options do achieve.  The  Cinera, for example provides 2560x1440 per eye and no screen door effect.  Several of the viewers in the Goovis line also provide full HD and TCL is about to put on the market a pair of very compact spectacles that also provide 1080p.

Another problem is the cost of 3D printing.  Your original viewer body was $100 but now the new body is double that and the attachment alone is $100.  So now we are at $300. just for the "plastic" body.   This means it's time to consider casting to reduce the basic costs.

Also, I don't agree with this notion that we need a "universal solution" that addresses the needs of both digital fans and MF fans.  This is 2021 and most of us are shooting digital images and looking for the best digital viewer.  Yes, there is still a small group of MF fans that still shoot film and that are also looking for an ideal MF viewer.  It seems to me that it would be much less complicated to produce a viewer specifically for digital fans and another one for the MF fans.  But why make the viewer modular and thus more expensive when only a few people will actually want the MF solution ?

Francois


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

William Kiraly
 


Same shot in SBS. Apologies if this comes through twice but I can’t see anywhere where my first response went through



————————————————————
William Kiraly

Writer / Stereo Photographer / Programmer

Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com



------ Original Message ------
From: "George Themelis" <gathemelis@...>
Sent: 6/13/2021 12:26:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

Hi Bill,

 

The picture is shown at very low resolution (640x178 pixels).  Try attaching the stereo pair (just LR) at full HD resolution (1080 pixels high) so we can study it better.

 

George

 

From: William Kiraly
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 12:19 PM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

 

For sake of discussion, here is a shot made with my my staggered RX100’s taken on Saturday. Feel free to use it to point out the first or second order effects as discussed in this section. I am assuming the staggering formation is responsible for what appears to me as slightly different angle of view in each image. 

 

(It is L-R-L)

.

 

I am also not above bragging on my daughter who was one of 15 artists asked to decorate pianos for a Cleveland-wide art installation putting these pianos outside in different areas around the city. This is her work in front of the Waterloo Art Gallery in the Waterloo Arts District;

 

 

————————————————————

William Kiraly

 

Writer / Stereo Photographer / Programmer

 

Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com

 

 

 


--

--------------------------------------------------------------
William Kiraly
wkiraly@...
Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com
Writing: www.befuddledmuse.com
3D Gallery: https://stereopix.net/wkiraly/
SmugMug: https://wkiraly.smugmug.com/

 


--

--------------------------------------------------------------
William Kiraly
wkiraly@...
Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com
Writing: www.befuddledmuse.com
3D Gallery: https://stereopix.net/wkiraly/
SmugMug: https://wkiraly.smugmug.com/


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

William Kiraly
 


Yep, that sounds like a better idea.

Wck

————————————————————
William Kiraly

Writer / Stereo Photographer / Programmer

Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com



------ Original Message ------
From: "George Themelis" <gathemelis@...>
Sent: 6/13/2021 12:26:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

Hi Bill,

 

The picture is shown at very low resolution (640x178 pixels).  Try attaching the stereo pair (just LR) at full HD resolution (1080 pixels high) so we can study it better.

 

George

 

From: William Kiraly
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 12:19 PM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

 

For sake of discussion, here is a shot made with my my staggered RX100’s taken on Saturday. Feel free to use it to point out the first or second order effects as discussed in this section. I am assuming the staggering formation is responsible for what appears to me as slightly different angle of view in each image. 

 

(It is L-R-L)

.

 

I am also not above bragging on my daughter who was one of 15 artists asked to decorate pianos for a Cleveland-wide art installation putting these pianos outside in different areas around the city. This is her work in front of the Waterloo Art Gallery in the Waterloo Arts District;

 

 

————————————————————

William Kiraly

 

Writer / Stereo Photographer / Programmer

 

Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com

 

 

 


--

--------------------------------------------------------------
William Kiraly
wkiraly@...
Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com
Writing: www.befuddledmuse.com
3D Gallery: https://stereopix.net/wkiraly/
SmugMug: https://wkiraly.smugmug.com/

 


--

--------------------------------------------------------------
William Kiraly
wkiraly@...
Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com
Writing: www.befuddledmuse.com
3D Gallery: https://stereopix.net/wkiraly/
SmugMug: https://wkiraly.smugmug.com/


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

gl
 


moving forwards or backwards changes perspective, unlike zooming which doesn't.  technically changes in perspective can't be corrected, but if the error is small, it probably doesn't matter (much).

I've been tempted in the past to stagger, but avoided it out of principle.  my reasoning was that it's like having one eye ball a little further away - I'm sure the brain would get used to it, but it might cause a subtle 'weird' sensation that could get worse with large-scale displays.

I never really tested it though.
--
gl

On 13/06/2021 20:10, Antonio F.G. via groups.io wrote:
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:39 AM, George Themelis wrote:

So, what happens if the stereo base is zero?  Take a picture, move the camera forward, take another picture.

In theory this would require a perspective deformation of 90°. For sure my software would crash because of divisions by zero or similar artifacts.


I am going outside to shoot a test image and I will post it here and see exactly what happens after Antonio’s transformation.
Yes, please!

Regards
    Antonio


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

Antonio F.G.
 

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:39 AM, George Themelis wrote:

So, what happens if the stereo base is zero?  Take a picture, move the camera forward, take another picture.

In theory this would require a perspective deformation of 90°. For sure my software would crash because of divisions by zero or similar artifacts.


I am going outside to shoot a test image and I will post it here and see exactly what happens after Antonio’s transformation.
Yes, please!

Regards
    Antonio


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

Antonio F.G.
 

I could not notice visually any misalignment in the the piano image (whether the piano sounds well is another question:-)
I did not notice the angle difference you told.

Stmani3 tells a vertical error around 0.7% and I could not improve it very much, just to 0.3%. Apparently these are rather high errors, but the reason is a numerical artifact because the image is very small (~147pix high). The vertical error in your original image is ~1pixel, Stmani3 could reduce it ~0.5pixel but sub-pixel calculations are pretty in the limits of what can be done.

Please send another test pair of your staggered RX100 without previous alignment and decorations. It is OK to downscale them somewhat to reduce the storage (but not that much!)

This is what I got with Stmani3. The small improvement in alignment was achieved with a perspective deformation. The "V" Vertical disparity is shown in pixels, it shows zero, but is actually 0.5 pix:

Regards
    Antonio


Android Phone with Depth Mapping Question

David Starkman
 

My current Android phone is over 5 years old and I'm ready to update it with a new phone. I'd like to get a new model that has the depth mapping feature (Portrait mode?) as I ordered the Looking Glass Portrait and this will be a helpful combination. ( I got to see a Looking Glass over the weekend that a friend got, and was pretty impressed. However, I ordered mine near the end of the campaign, so it might be a couple of more months or more until I get mine. )

So my question for the group is do any of you have a very new model that has the depth mapping and good specs that is smaller than 6" that you would recommend? I prefer a smaller size phone, and the new models have become way to large for the top of the line models, but there are so many out there to compare I thought maybe some of you would have some suggestions based on your experience. 
 
Thank You!
 
DDDavid


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

George Themelis
 

So, what happens if the stereo base is zero?  Take a picture, move the camera forward, take another picture.

 

It seems that the transformation fails. OK, this is not an actual stereo pair, but you can think of it as a stereo pair with zero stereo base, so it should be flat. But there is no way the two images can be transformed to match each other identically.

 

With a stereo base used, I have hard time imagining how the images will be deformed after the transformation.

 

I am going outside to shoot a test image and I will post it here and see exactly what happens after Antonio’s transformation.

 

Stay tuned…

 

George

 

 

From: Antonio F.G. via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2021 1:52 PM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

 

Q.E.D.

Regards
     Antonio

 


Re: base-to-base mounting for Sony RX-100 #sony3drigs #twinrig

George Themelis
 

Hi Oktay, et al.,

 

That’s a good point, but it needs a clarification.

 

Consider the original image (2:3 aspect ratio) out of the RX100 oriented vertically.

 

The first step is crop. When you crop, two things happen:

  1. You lose resolution (you throw away pixels)
  2. You lose field of view

 

In the attached picture I have cropped the original image into a 4:3 landscape mode. Essentially I threw away half of the image (the bottom half). The way I cropped, I have lost field of view only vertically, not horizontally. The deviation has not changed by cropping, only the resolution and the field of view.

 

The second step is to enlarge the image to fill the display. This is a separate step but when you use SPM to crop, the image is scaled automatically so for most people this happens when you crop, but not necessarily.

 

It is in the step that the stereoscopic deviation increases. Why? Because I have enlarged the image by 2x. I prefer to think of the deviation as a function of magnification and stereo base, not so much the focal length (Deviation = Magnification x Stereo Base)

 

The stereoscopic deviation could have increased by as much as 2x, but it is possible that it is not increased that much. When I cropped the image at the bottom, most likely I have cropped the near-by objects (most likely the ground). The stereoscopic deviation depends on the distances of the near and far objects. If these have remained in the picture when I cropped, then, yes, the deviation has doubled. But if they were cropped out, then the deviation has increased less.

 

I use vertical cameras a lot. For example, my twin Sony RX10 rig. I crop and I use cropping as a way to increase the magnification. I am also using the RX0 rig vertically.  With the RX0, I crop a lot of the ground. I do not mind that the effective focal length increases, I actually like it.

 

I have not tried the RX100 vertically yet, but if you ask me what I prefer, 1) the cameras side-by-side with 112mm separation at 24mm focal length, or 2) the cameras vertically with 60mm separation and focal length of 35 to 50mm, I would say in most cases I would prefer #2.

 

George

 

 

 

 

 

From: Oktay via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2021 6:45 PM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] base-to-base mounting for Sony RX-100 #sony3drigs #twinrig

 

If you use cameras in vertical orientation and crop a horizontal rectangle, keep in mind that the effective 35mm equivalent focal length will increase.
So what you gain in base will be lost due to this increase in FL if you want to maintain the same deviation.
In other words you'd need a smaller base than the one you've obtained by mounting the cameras bottom to bottom.

Oktay

 


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

George Themelis
 

Hi Bill,

 

The picture is shown at very low resolution (640x178 pixels).  Try attaching the stereo pair (just LR) at full HD resolution (1080 pixels high) so we can study it better.

 

George

 

From: William Kiraly
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2021 12:19 PM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

 

For sake of discussion, here is a shot made with my my staggered RX100’s taken on Saturday. Feel free to use it to point out the first or second order effects as discussed in this section. I am assuming the staggering formation is responsible for what appears to me as slightly different angle of view in each image. 

 

(It is L-R-L)

.

 

I am also not above bragging on my daughter who was one of 15 artists asked to decorate pianos for a Cleveland-wide art installation putting these pianos outside in different areas around the city. This is her work in front of the Waterloo Art Gallery in the Waterloo Arts District;

 

 

————————————————————

William Kiraly

 

Writer / Stereo Photographer / Programmer

 

Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com

 

 

 


--

--------------------------------------------------------------
William Kiraly
wkiraly@...
Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com
Writing: www.befuddledmuse.com
3D Gallery: https://stereopix.net/wkiraly/
SmugMug: https://wkiraly.smugmug.com/

 


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

William Kiraly
 

For sake of discussion, here is a shot made with my my staggered RX100’s taken on Saturday. Feel free to use it to point out the first or second order effects as discussed in this section. I am assuming the staggering formation is responsible for what appears to me as slightly different angle of view in each image. 

(It is L-R-L)
.

I am also not above bragging on my daughter who was one of 15 artists asked to decorate pianos for a Cleveland-wide art installation putting these pianos outside in different areas around the city. This is her work in front of the Waterloo Art Gallery in the Waterloo Arts District;


————————————————————
William Kiraly

Writer / Stereo Photographer / Programmer

Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com




--

--------------------------------------------------------------
William Kiraly
wkiraly@...
Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com
Writing: www.befuddledmuse.com
3D Gallery: https://stereopix.net/wkiraly/
SmugMug: https://wkiraly.smugmug.com/


Re: 3d-printed stereoscope update

Depthcam
 

Now that I see that those high resolution displays are only 1440x1440, my enthusiasm has gone down.  This means that such a display cannot even achieve full HD (1920 x1080p per eye), which other commercially available options do achieve.  The  Cinera, for example provides 2560x1440 per eye and no screen door effect.  Several of the viewers in the Goovis line also provide full HD and TCL is about to put on the market a pair of very compact spectacles that also provide 1080p.

Another problem is the cost of 3D printing.  Your original viewer body was $100 but now the new body is double that and the attachment alone is $100.  So now we are at $300. just for the "plastic" body.   This means it's time to consider casting to reduce the basic costs.

Also, I don't agree with this notion that we need a "universal solution" that addresses the needs of both digital fans and MF fans.  This is 2021 and most of us are shooting digital images and looking for the best digital viewer.  Yes, there is still a small group of MF fans that still shoot film and that are also looking for an ideal MF viewer.  It seems to me that it would be much less complicated to produce a viewer specifically for digital fans and another one for the MF fans.  But why make the viewer modular and thus more expensive when only a few people will actually want the MF solution ?

Francois


Re: base-to-base mounting for Sony RX-100 #sony3drigs #twinrig

Oktay
 

If you use cameras in vertical orientation and crop a horizontal rectangle, keep in mind that the effective 35mm equivalent focal length will increase.
So what you gain in base will be lost due to this increase in FL if you want to maintain the same deviation.
In other words you'd need a smaller base than the one you've obtained by mounting the cameras bottom to bottom.

Oktay


Re: Twin camera Overlapping/Staggering

Antonio F.G.
 

Yes, images from staggered rigs can be perfectly aligned, in the sense that vertical disparity can be made zero.
There is a shortcoming though, both images need to be distorted in perspective. How much? exactly the angle atan(z/B), in the case of the George RX100 rig it will be atan(25/75)=18.4°

I have drawn a graphic in stereo that shows the alignment of the staggered cameras. It is an animated GIF that flips between the original view and the aligned view:

P is a point in the scene that projects into the image sensor of each camera through the respective focal points FL FR (this assumes perfect lenses). The optical axis project into the points OL,OR of the sensor that represents a point in the infinity.

Vertical alignment is very simple: just notice the real stereo baseline is not B, but B', the line between the focal points of the lenses. Now place a virtual sensor plane parallel to the real baseline, and re-project the scene point P, it will project into the points PL PR on the virtual sensor. Any plane parallel to the baseline fits, but for this explanation it is convenient to choose one that goes through the optical centers OL,OR.

Now have a look to the triangle P-PL-PR. It is equivalent to the triangle P-FL-FR, therefore the lower side FL-FR is parallel to PL-PR. And the line OL OR is also parallel to B' because the virtual sensor plane is parallel to the baseline B'.

Therefore the line between the images PL PR of the scene point P is PARALLEL to the baseline. Therefore every pair of aligned points is in a line that is also PARALLEL to the baseline. Therefore the images have no vertical disparity, therefore they are perfectly ALIGNED .

Q.E.D.

Regards
     Antonio

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