Date   

Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

Werner Bloos
 

Hello Bill, 
It does not make any difference when using a remote control (wired, not wireless)  or a direct connection since both do the same: they use the focus and the shoot pin of the MULTI Terminal jack. Only when using a wireless connection (e.g. one transmitter and two recievers (each connected to one camera)) then synch may be worse since the wireless commands do not need to be recieved at the same time.

I used a wired stereoscopic remote control (3D RM-VS1)

greetings
Werner


Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

William Kiraly
 

Werner et al, 

Interesting results but I have a question, how did you trigger the cameras? I have tried two methods, one where both cameras are connected to a shutter release and the other, which I use most often, are cameras connected directly. I have noticed occasional visible miss-synch using the cable release but, so far, the cameras connected directly to each other are much, much better with no sync issues I can see. They are much better than my Samsungs which almost always left me with visible miss-synch artifacts. 

Bill

—————————————————————————
William Kiraly
Writer / Photographer / Programmer
440-655-7971




------ Original Message ------
From: "George Themelis" <gathemelis@...>
Sent: 4/20/2021 7:51:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] SONY RX100 synch measurements

That’s a good point. In Antonio’s picture you can tell because the legs are “crossed” and in some of my baseball pictures you can tell because the ball is out of the plane of action, but with the dog you could not tell if the dog was slightly shifted over the log. But, hey, the bottom line is if the picture works. This is photography, not science :)

 

So, if synch tests are showing that the Sony synchronization is not “perfect” or even “excellent”, and yet people are out there enjoying the cameras and taking excellent pictures, who should we listen to? Those who see the test results and are discouraged from trying the cameras, are missing the fun, in my opinion. The Sonys are not perfect but the synchronization is simple and sufficient for most everyday pictures.

 

George

 

From: Werner Bloos
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 5:35 AM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] SONY RX100 synch measurements

 

I guess I was lucky to have the ONLY 3 shots of the dog jumping over the log adequately

Not necessary only luck - if an objects moves only horizontal and there is no reference to other objects then this object is only placed wrong in depth an you may say: this is in sych, but in fact it is not in synch since the deplacement cannot be seen.

Synch tests are important if you want to know whats possible to shoot and what not.

Greetings
Werner

 


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William Kiraly
wkiraly@...
Personal Site: www.cohenkiraly.com
Writing: www.befuddledmuse.com
3D Gallery: https://stereopix.net/wkiraly/
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Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

Werner Bloos
 


Is 1/500s or 1/1000s enough to freeze the motion of the feet? If it is, and the cameras are synchronized to the same speed, then they picture should be synchronized. 
NO, if shutter speed freezes the scene you still may have a missynchronidation e.g of 1/1000s so one camera  catches the scene 1/1000s later than the other one.

You also need to consider the fact that a median missynch does not mean that all schots do have same missych! A tested missynch of e.g 1/1000s means that 50% of all shots are better, but also 50% are worse than this value. If you download the test spreadsheets (or have a look at the graphics attached to my first post) you will see that the synch tests results vary for each shot and the synch variance for the RX100 is bertween 1/77s (13ms) and  infinite (0.000000s) - (occured only once so 1% - in fact this measurement value does not need to be zero, it is only smaller than the measurement resolution of the used measurement system (here: 1/81489s))

Greetings
Werner


Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

George Themelis
 

That’s a good point. In Antonio’s picture you can tell because the legs are “crossed” and in some of my baseball pictures you can tell because the ball is out of the plane of action, but with the dog you could not tell if the dog was slightly shifted over the log. But, hey, the bottom line is if the picture works. This is photography, not science :)

 

So, if synch tests are showing that the Sony synchronization is not “perfect” or even “excellent”, and yet people are out there enjoying the cameras and taking excellent pictures, who should we listen to? Those who see the test results and are discouraged from trying the cameras, are missing the fun, in my opinion. The Sonys are not perfect but the synchronization is simple and sufficient for most everyday pictures.

 

George

 

From: Werner Bloos
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 5:35 AM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] SONY RX100 synch measurements

 

I guess I was lucky to have the ONLY 3 shots of the dog jumping over the log adequately

Not necessary only luck - if an objects moves only horizontal and there is no reference to other objects then this object is only placed wrong in depth an you may say: this is in sych, but in fact it is not in synch since the deplacement cannot be seen.

Synch tests are important if you want to know whats possible to shoot and what not.

Greetings
Werner

 


Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

George Themelis
 

It helps to think of synchronization in relation to shutter speed.

 

Is 1/500s or 1/1000s enough to freeze the motion of the feet? If it is, and the cameras are synchronized to the same speed, then they picture should be synchronized. I see in Antonio’s  pictures that were shot a 1/200s and there is slight blur. My guess is that the synchronization of the cameras was around 1/250, not good enough for this motion.

 

So, think what kind of action requires a shutter speed of higher than 1/1000s to freeze? Back in the film days, film cameras of the 70s and 80s had a top shutter speed of 1/1000s. When people twinned cameras, 1/1000s synchronization was a bit of a dream. Yet, they took great action 3D photos. Today, we are calling the 1/1000s synchronization barely “sufficient” and 1/500s “bad”?

 

George

 

From: Antonio F.G. via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2021 5:46 AM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] SONY RX100 synch measurements

 

To show my point I uploaded an image of a horse dance, where the right leg of the horses appears crossed with the other leg.
https://stereopix.net/photo:9ON3DoJfzj/
This is from my NX1000 rig  where I measured a maximum miss-synch of 2ms, rarely 3ms, but most often between 0 and 1ms. http://afgalaz.es/stereo/synch_nx1000/
And this image was not an exception, most of them showed noticeable "cross-legs"
The thing is that 1/1000s synch may be excellent or dreadful depending of the scene. And I am not talking of extremely fast scenes, the horses' dance is relatively slow.

 


Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

Antonio F.G.
 

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 11:12 AM, George Themelis wrote:

PS. For the past few days I have been trail-running with a dog and taking action shots. I photograph the dog running at full speed and jumping over logs. The dog is “frozen” mid-air over the log.

If the cameras can capture this kind of action, they can capture anything else that I shoot, so I am very pleased. Very-very pleased. I just came back from another dog walk/run photoshoot, and, as I was looking at today’s pictures, I was thinking how pleased I am with these cameras. Did I mention that I am pleased?  

Please note that a dog jumping over a log is not a demanding scene in regard to stereo synch. You may have a very large miss-synch, say 20ms, and this will only result in the dog appearing a few inches nearer or farther from you than it should be. Nobody will notice that.
The same happens when taking photos to fast moving water: within some limits nobody will notice if the droplets are a bit nearer or farther than they should be.

Try to take photos of the same dog RUNNING across you (not towards you), and watch its legs.

To show my point I uploaded an image of a horse dance, where the right leg of the horses appears crossed with the other leg.
https://stereopix.net/photo:9ON3DoJfzj/
This is from my NX1000 rig  where I measured a maximum miss-synch of 2ms, rarely 3ms, but most often between 0 and 1ms. http://afgalaz.es/stereo/synch_nx1000/
And this image was not an exception, most of them showed noticeable "cross-legs"
The thing is that 1/1000s synch may be excellent or dreadful depending of the scene. And I am not talking of extremely fast scenes, the horses' dance is relatively slow.

Well, the mis-synch of the horses could also be blamed to the Z configuration of my rig. The running curtain runs in opposite directions, which surely involves an inherent mis-synch, unfortunately the design of my rig is not flexible enough to place both cameras straight.

The beauty of walking legs (be they of a four or two legged beast:-) is that one leg rapidly moves while the other is still. Any mis-synch makes the moving leg to appear misplaced respect the still one.

Regards
   Antonio


Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

Werner Bloos
 

I guess I was lucky to have the ONLY 3 shots of the dog jumping over the log adequately
Not necessary only luck - if an objects moves only horizontal and there is no reference to other objects then this object is only placed wrong in depth an you may say: this is in sych, but in fact it is not in synch since the deplacement cannot be seen.

Synch tests are important if you want to know whats possible to shoot and what not.

Greetings
Werner


Re: Ingenuity on Mars in 3D, first flight

forum@trivision3d.com
 

JMH/trivision3d : Hi, TKS Jack in wait to have 2D video cha-cha in 3D stereo from martian poor air... cam on it too I believe.
When we see what can be done with drones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2itwFJCgFQ
See synchronous of two drones (flight order with one hand) at 11.45mn... we could imagine to us it for hyper stereo base.
++JM

Le 20/04/2021 à 06:50, JackDesBwa|3D a écrit :

It looks like the first flight of Ingenuity on Mars was recorded in stereo (preview below)
Only a few frames are available in the public repository for the moment (SOL58), but since the NASA was able to assemble a video, we could imagine that the other frames will become available soon.

JackDesBwa
ingenuity_flight_fast_stereo.jpg



Re: Drones for 3D

forum@trivision3d.com
 

Le 19/04/2021 à 22:08, Sylvain Weiller a écrit :
Hi,

Tried once in chacha  ... but soon after lost my drone (burned as blocked in a tree).

http://sweiller.free.fr/Drone/3D/Drone3D.htm

BR

Sylvain

Le 4/19/2021 à 6:14 PM, davidgaha a écrit :
Hi, I hope everyone is doing fine, and healthy, I would like to know if someone is using a drone, or a couple of them, to shoot stereo images, the possibilities seem to be really good.
Keep safe

Hi, yes Sylvain, it is the risk.

When I see in Asia 2000 drones synchronous  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh3-Mvrp1Lc  making with Led in sky by night a "dots" motion  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjRb6u_PQwQ like done by  laser... I imagine we could synch only two or three drones for 3D shoot hyper base synch (twin base to choice in post prod later).

Have also a look to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCXGpEmFbOw

In wait you are speaking to only use drone for cha-cha, yes of course well functioning (see bellow cha cha from horizontal 2D video), but a bit obsolete nowadays... I believe stereo base now possible and two or more drones keep horizontal flight.

French Navy


From TV News helicopter 2D video

from airplane window



Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

Mike Bittner
 

No sample images attached? I'll probably never abandon SDM, but I'd like to see results. :-)

Mike


Ingenuity on Mars in 3D, first flight

JackDesBwa|3D
 

It looks like the first flight of Ingenuity on Mars was recorded in stereo (preview below)
Only a few frames are available in the public repository for the moment (SOL58), but since the NASA was able to assemble a video, we could imagine that the other frames will become available soon.

JackDesBwa
ingenuity_flight_fast_stereo.jpg


Re: 3D Pop-Up (Phantogram) In VR

 

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 01:33 PM, Roger Maddy wrote:
I'd really like to shoot these without the dummy.
Good-bye dummy.
Head (VR camera) tilt angle problem solved for shooting 3D pop-outs (phantograms):
Quickly toggle in and out of an appropriate scene in Blender VR, and hold your head still.
Piece of cake, kids!
Looking for appropriate scene...


Re: 3D Pop-Up (Phantogram) In VR

 

This is the dummy I'd like to eliminate.


Re: 3D Pop-Up (Phantogram) In VR

 

I have a question for you.
Since moving forward or backward changes the perspective, isn't there an allowable degree of error for the tilt angle? I'd really like to shoot these without the dummy. 🧐


3D Pop-Up (Phantogram) In VR

 

This is my first attempt at a 3D pop-up (phantogram) in VR:
 


Re: Drones for 3D

Sylvain Weiller
 

Hi,

Tried once in chacha  ... but soon after lost my drone (burned as blocked in a tree).

http://sweiller.free.fr/Drone/3D/Drone3D.htm

BR

Sylvain

Le 4/19/2021 à 6:14 PM, davidgaha a écrit :
Hi, I hope everyone is doing fine, and healthy, I would like to know if someone is using a drone, or a couple of them, to shoot stereo images, the possibilities seem to be really good.
Keep safe
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

George Themelis
 

“so you have a 15% chance NOT to freeze your scene in synch”

 

I guess I was lucky to have the ONLY 3 shots of the dog jumping over the log adequately (I will not say perfectly :)) synchronized.

 

Generally, I take lots of pictures. From my dog run/walk today I took 170 pictures (in an hour and a half). I was just thinking that back in the good old film days I would have shot maybe one roll (20 pairs with my RBT S1). We are spoiled to be able to take lots of pictures to increase our chances of success and experiment with what works and what does not.

 

It is nice to have a rig that it “perfectly” synchronized 99% of the time. But, honestly, I am very happy with a rig that is “adequately” (1/500 and up) synchronized ¾ of the time. Instead of spending time measuring sterile setups to come up with some numbers I’d rather go out and shoot a variety of shots and learn from the results :) (but I am thankful for people like Werner that do the measurements for us).

 

George

 

PS. It is not easy to photograph the dog jumping over the log, because the dog likes to run next to me so I do not have time to set up the shot. What I do is jump over the log and stop and wait for the dog to get distracted sniffing around. Then I quickly jump back, and position myself. The dog realizes I have left and sprints to join me. As he jumps over the log, I fire the cameras. I am very pleased with these shots. I do not want to show them here because I plan to enter them in competitions and I don’t want to spoil the surprise effect for the judges, even though now that I have described the shots, they will figure out they are mine.

 

 

 

 

From: Werner Bloos
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 2:55 PM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] SONY RX100 synch measurements

 

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 06:27 PM, George Themelis wrote:

The RX100 camera tested by Werner showed 1/1250s average synchronization and this is called only sufficient?

yes because the 1/1250s is the AVERAGE (to be more precise: the median value) but you still have wide spreading missynch values - up to 13ms (1/77s) - if you study the spreadsheet more carefully you will see that:
- 15% (15 out of 100 test shots) are even worse than 1/200s... so you have a 15% chance NOT to freeze your scene in synch - so this is by far not excellent!

Werner

 


Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

Werner Bloos
 

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 06:27 PM, George Themelis wrote:
The RX100 camera tested by Werner showed 1/1250s average synchronization and this is called only sufficient?
yes because the 1/1250s is the AVERAGE (to be more precise: the median value) but you still have wide spreading missynch values - up to 13ms (1/77s) - if you study the spreadsheet more carefully you will see that:
- 15% (15 out of 100 test shots) are even worse than 1/200s... so you have a 15% chance NOT to freeze your scene in synch - so this is by far not excellent!

Werner


Re: SONY RX100 synch measurements

timo@guildwood.net
 

I shoot with a pair of Sony a5100 cameras. I don’t know of any synch tests being done on these cameras, but I was able to shoot continuously for over 20 minutes, a marine rescue with a helicopter, with perfect synchronization of the rotor blades in all but one image (which was close) which may have been due to failing to wait for focus. I did not start the cameras simultaneously, and I did not restart the cameras at any point. I don’t even see any evidence of the inverted shutter movement that was clearly evident in my NX1100 rig.

SDM rigs have had excellent synchronization, but my other experiments with poorly, and even fairly well synchronized rigs have made me very sensitive to mis-synchronization. My a5100 rig has never failed me yet. I think you get to know your rig. I don’t need further testing to know if my rig is synchronized.

Timo

On Apr 19, 2021, at 12:12 PM, George Themelis <gathemelis@...> wrote:

“Well these results are by far not perfect, not even excellent - I would say the synch result is only 'sufficient'”

 
Well, I am sorry but anything at 1/1000s or higher is excellent for me.  Here we are looking at almost 1/2000s. This is better than the Samsung NX1000 and many other twin rigs that people have been happily using.
 
These are great results, thank you for confirming! 
 
PS. For the past few days I have been trail-running with a dog and taking action shots. I photograph the dog running at full speed and jumping over logs. The dog is “frozen” mid-air over the log. 
 
If the cameras can capture this kind of action, they can capture anything else that I shoot, so I am very pleased. Very-very pleased. I just came back from another dog walk/run photoshoot, and, as I was looking at today’s pictures, I was thinking how pleased I am with these cameras. Did I mention that I am pleased?  I don’t care how the rest of the world feels but I am the only one that I need to please, and this is happening. 😊
 
George
 
 
From: Werner Bloos
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 11:37 AM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: [Photo-3d] SONY RX100 synch measurements
 

Hello,

SONY RX100 cameras paired for 3D seem to be popular and their synch is claimed to be 'perfect' or 'excellent' - but no one did synch test by now to prove this synch. Let me destroy this illusion: I have done synch tests with a pair of RX100M2 and got these results:
- individual power-on for each camera: median missynch is: 1/1254s (= 0.797650 ms)
- synchronised power-on via the MULTI Terminal port: median missynch is: 1/1698s (= 0.589034 ms)
(of course a power-off/power-on was done for each shot to eliminate synch drift)

The synchronised power-on improves synch but with this model not as significant as with other models (e.g. DSC-HX50)

Well these results are by far not perfect, not even excellent - I would say the synch result is only 'sufficient'
OK, now someone else may say: 'The M2 model is old and my newer model is much better...'  - ok then provide your synch tests with newer models (M3-M7) to be able to compare them...

You can find my spreadsheets as well as all results here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PVmr8RjcRJvL1kEas5lHL4TQZqeQBixhwKBuO73HyIM/edit?usp=sharing

greetings
Werner



 
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Re: Drones for 3D

George Themelis
 

I do not use a drone myself but I know people who do and I have seen the results and some of them are very good.

 

Most people (the examples that I have seen) just use one camera and the motion of the drone to create the stereo base. This creates some very nice stereo pairs and you have the option to select the stereo base.

 

Any movement between the two shots can spoil the pair but corrections can be made with photoshop.

 

George

 

From: davidgaha
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 11:14 AM
To: main@photo-3d.groups.io
Subject: [Photo-3d] Drones for 3D

 

Hi, I hope everyone is doing fine, and healthy, I would like to know if someone is using a drone, or a couple of them, to shoot stereo images, the possibilities seem to be really good. 
Keep safe 

 

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