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‘Screen Door Effect’, sure. But ‘Mura’?
#viewing
#vrheadset
This is a new term for me...
"Mura: For various reasons, it’s challenging to make each pixel display exactly the same color, even if the computer output to the display is a frame consisting of one singular color value. Mura is the result of poor color and brightness consistency from one pixel to the next." -- Understanding the Difference Between ‘Screen Door Effect’, ‘Mura’, & ‘Aliasing’ https://www.roadtovr.com/whats-the-difference-between-screen-door-effect-sde-mura-aliasing-vr-headset/ Wish there was a more concise but well recognized term for the 'screen door effect'. I believe pixelation is similar but different. ...BC
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Re: LookingGlass Factory Kickstarter
Depthcam
The new display is as it says, a "portrait" display. It's been optimized to display portrtaits shot with depth sensing cameras or slide bars. When used in that fashion, I suspect that a powerful computer is not needed - the same way as SPM can be used on a normal computer to display content on the original Looking Glass.
I would be surprised that this would replace the horizontal version. If the latter has been removed from their site, it's more likely because they are developing a generation 2 version. One thing to keep in mind is the very low resolution of such displays. But I must admit the low introductory price makes it very tempting. Francois
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Re: HOLY GRAIL VR viewer might be here?
Depthcam
What Bill Costa wrote: 100% agree.
I was a beta tester for the original Cinera and I still feel the IQ is amazing. They did away with the screen door effect long ago by using high resolution displays and low magnification lenses. As far as I am concerned, my search for the ideal digital viewer has ended with this one (in spite of its less than ideal optics). The only thing that could make it better is for it to be smaller. This is what the Cinera Edge is attempting to do. But it is designed for movie viewing and a big part of its design is large headphones, which may be great for movie viewing but not for casual stills viewing. If its IQ is comparable to what I get with the Cinera Prime, then a compact handheld version would be the ideal for stills or short clips. In the meantime, there is an affordable alternative for high resolution VR headsets in the form of the HP Reverb G2. https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset.html Francois
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Re: HOLY GRAIL VR viewer might be here?
Depthcam
I saw that on Road to VR yesterday. I had been following Varjo's products for a while now but... they are way beyond expensive - for industry use only. And the support cost per year alone is also industry-only. As for portability, well, these headsets are tethered and you need very powerful computers to support them. So unless you also have a portable high power computer, it really only works with a stationary computer.
https://www.roadtovr.com/varjo-xr-3-vr-3-announcement-specs-release-date-price/ Francois
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Re: HOLY GRAIL VR viewer might be here?
I only had a quick look at this ... my first quick overview,Had to laugh - a 'quick look' that resulted in a page long description. You've already delved more deeply into this than most. I have been preaching for the past 10 yrs that digital viewers haveI think 3D 'digital viewers' and VR headsets are two different animals. At some point really good VR headsets could obviate the need for a simpler viewer because the cost will have dropped low enough, while the IQ has gotten high enough, for a single device to effectively satisfy both use cases. While this new VR viewer looks exciting for people who want to do VR, I think it will be of less interest to people who are only interested in high-IQ 3D digital viewers. Consider in contrast the Cinera Edge. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cinera-edge-5k-hmd-with-dolby-digital-headphone While at this point it is only a crowd-funded project, these folks have already demonstrated that they can produce a good viewer with their original Cinera Prime which is still currently available. https://www.cinera.net/copy-of-prime There are a couple of owners of this viewer on this list if you have questions. But I agree, for VR and AR (augmented reality), the new viewer you profiled certainly looks like it could be another significant and welcomed advance in the state of the art for consumer-level VR. ...BC
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HOLY GRAIL VR viewer might be here?
Bill G
I only had a quick look at this, but from my first quick overview, this is impressive! I have been preaching for the past 10 yrs that digital viewers have the potential to be the HOLY GRAIL, if certain features are implemented to overcome the high hurdles of optics and screen resolution. It appears my wish list factors has finally made it into an actual product, soon, I hope. Video below. This IMO will be the future of VR headsets! Key highlights... 1. 70 PPI, pixels per inch, at the center FOV. (slightly better than 20/20, 1 arc minute) I would prefer 120 ppi foveal FOV to prevent seeing pixel patterns on white images. (remains to be seen if 70 ppi is sufficient, it might be based on pixel pattern and pixel type) Regardless, this will be a game changer.. 2. the periphery is HD resolution, which is more than sufficient for our super low rez human periphery acuity. The huge benefit of VR is, if you want to look around the scene, you keep your eye on the center of the image where the optics and screen are SHARP and move your head, as the image follows...finally a maker has capitalized on this unique digital 3d viewing benefit. It's this unique benefit that overcomes the need for super high rez full size screens which creates massive processing hardware, software, size, weight and cost. This also allows relatively low cost and high quality optics, as the its only the center 20 deg, approx. they need to design for high MTF. It's the radius outside the 20deg area that, if required to be sharp and distortion free, drives up the number of elements, size, weight and cost of the optics to the point where a head mounted display is not feasible. Now, relatively low cost optics
(cemented doublet or triplet) can perform as ultra costly optics whereas you would be forced to swivel your eye around the entire radius of the optic to see the entire screen! This high rez center area of the screen is the key breakthrough to overcome both the optics and screen resolution obstacles. 3. Auto IPD adjust which will keep the eye pupil concentric with the center optical axis, with NO user intervention! This also will greatly reduce the optics costs since it's now assured all users eye pupil will be concentric with lens centers. This can now allow for optic distortion (it will exist, at such wide FOV's and low cost optics), to be anti distorted in software, creating distortion free imagery. This is not possible unless every user's eye pupils are concentric with the lens center. As off axis alignment creates different distortion patterns, making anti distortion software counter productive. To put this in perspective.... with your eye always seeing 70 PPI in this viewer, how would this compare with a fixed viewer, similar to Matej viewer, wheatstone or typical film style viewer. If this was a fixed viewer, whereas you must swivel your eye through the entire radius of the optic to see the entire screen (vs. the periphery moving to the center when you move your head) Assuming 100 deg FOV, a fixed viewer would require 32MP screen for each eye! simple math below 70 PPI x 100 = 7000 Horiz pixels 3:2 aspect ratio or .66 per eye = 4666 Vert pixels 7000 x 4666 = 32MP screen per eye! OF course, these are small screens, so contrast and brightness will never match that of PC displays or TVs, but considering the portability and the ability to have much wider FOV vs. fixed displays, this IMO is a major game changer. This is the technology breakthrough that will advance VR quickly. Excited to see VR finally overcome the major hurdles needed to increase IQ while keeping the viewer relatively light weight and cost effective. Bill G
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Re: LookingGlass Factory Kickstarter
robert mcafee
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LookingGlass Factory Kickstarter
robert mcafee
The LookingGlass Factory have launched a Kickstarter campaign for a new 7.9 inch diagonal "holographic" display - LookingGlass Portrait. Today and tomorrow only you can fund the campaign at $199 USD (plus shipping) and receive one of the displays. After tomorrow the price increases to $249. Their list price is $349.
If I understand correctly you need a computer with higher end specs (especially with respect to the graphics card) for creating your own compatible images. It was not clear to me if your images can be loaded onto the display for stand alone viewing or whether the device must be connected to the computer to display images you created. Seems interesting. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lookingglass/looking-glass-portrait?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Say+hello+to+Looking+Glass+Portrait&utm_campaign=Portrait+Launch+%2812%2F2+list%29 Bob in Central NY
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Re: STMANI3 - A tool for stereo alignment
#alignment
#workFlow
Antonio F.G.
On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 09:13 AM, p_thoele wrote:
Have installed 3 times STMANI3 on Linux Mint 19.3 Mate 64-Bit computers successfully! The x86_64-linux-gnu is only quoted in the doc as a work around to install py3exiv2 in my Linux Mint box, only because it happens to be 64 bits. But py3exiv2 should work in 32 system as well, only the possible issues and working around may be different, but I can not test this without a 32bit system. But all this is only for installing py3exiv2, couldn't you install py3exiv2? trash-cli is another matter. This is not a Python library, it is an external system's command (STMANI uses two external commands: exiftool and trash-cli). trash-cli is used for erasing selected stereo pairs sending them to the system's trash bin, and recovering them from trash if need be. It has nothing to do with stereo alignment which is the main STMANI function, but I included it to alleviate a very painful task: ERASING photos to reduce the bulk of the ~300 digital photos I typically bring home from a trip. This is a trouble of the age of digital photography that did not happen in film times, then I typically returned home with a 36 slide reel (18 cha-cha stereos at most:-) STMANI works without trash-cli, it only can not erase pairs. But you can always erase them using system commands Regards Antonio
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Re: Lume Pad Evaluation: SERIOUS LIMITATION
Depthcam
On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 03:17 PM, Bill G wrote:
Glasses free 3d viewing has too many complexities to ever approach SBS high rez images I don't quite agree here. The image quality and clarity of 1080p and 2K 3D phones and tablets are quite impressive. They have little in common with the old Fuji V1 and V3 displays. I haven't seen Leia technology so it's hard for me to comment on it. But according to Linda, viewed at around 20 inches, the Lume Pad display still looks pretty good. Also, keep in mind that the most popular digital device featuring a glasses-free 3D display was the Nintendo 3DS. It sold over 75 million units and yet it had a very low resolution display (240p). So I am not convinced that low resolution is necessarily a deal breaker. As to how today's users would perceive it, well, the best measure of that is just to look at the user reviews on The Lume Pad site. Most buyers seem to be very impressed by what they see... https://www.lume-pad.com/shop I guess we'll just have to wait and see how things work out for them over coming months and hope they do have some measure of success. Francois
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Re: Lume Pad Evaluation: SERIOUS LIMITATION
Bill G
I do understand this Francois... and maybe I should have been more clear. No 3d display like Lume will match MF film with great optics and back lighting. Glasses free 3d viewing has too many complexities to ever approach SBS high rez images. As I mentioned, and this is obviously just my opinion, the avg consumer is so spoiled today with digital viewing. The bar is sooo high for what is to be expected from viewing high rez PC displays, tv's, etc. I am NOT suggesting, a 3d display like Lume needs to have be on par with an excellent 4K tv screen, but OTOH, it can not look like a 1985 display either. Yes, the features are unique for these displays, multi angle, easy interaction, etc. This IMO is the primary reason the Fuji screen was a flop, it was very low rez, low contrast and had a decent price tag. I can't see a low rez 3d display like this being offered into a high end automobile. I feel the average consumers expectations are just too high. They won't be comparing this to a 3d viewer, their bar is even higher based on their experience with spectacular modern 2d digital displays. 2d display technology is truly remarkable. My 4K PC screens and 4K tv's continue to amaze me. I really hope I am WRONG about this! I would love to see a 3d product penetrate some of these markets.
The problem with much of the reasoning here is that - again - the product is evaluated mainly from the standpoint of traditional stereoscopic photography. The Lume Pad is aimed primarily at graphic artists that create 3D renderings and want to display them in 3D with interaction via the touch screen. This is outlined in the clip I posted in another thread.
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Re: Lume Pad Evaluation: SERIOUS LIMITATION
Depthcam
The problem with much of the reasoning here is that - again - the product is evaluated mainly from the standpoint of traditional stereoscopic photography. The Lume Pad is aimed primarily at graphic artists that create 3D renderings and want to display them in 3D with interaction via the touch screen. This is outlined in the clip I posted in another thread.
They are also exploring other avenues such as integrating this technology in a car dashboard. See: https://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/auto-technology/3d-lightfield-display-set-to-change-driving-experience-in-future/69799633 Therefore, whereas you guys look upon this strictly from the angle of traditional 3D imaging via stereo slides in a stereo viewer, they are approaching 3D from the angle of multi-view interactive digital displays - something not possible with traditional analog technology. So the success of this product is not necessarily dependent on the high resolution of its display but more so, on its user-friendliness and interactivity. Francois
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Re: STMANI3 - A tool for stereo alignment
#alignment
#workFlow
Etienne Monneret (Perso)
Le 01/12/2020 à 16:13, p_thoele via
groups.io a écrit :
It is complaining about missing restore-trash I've got the same error, but the software is running properly. Hope Antonio will find how to make this more usable for not-developer users! He's software worth it! ;-)
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Re: Lume Pad Evaluation: SERIOUS LIMITATION
Bill G
John, very valid points indeed... fully agreed. Remarkably, looking in a Realist viewer in 1950 and even today, is still very impressive. Digital has not yet trumped the film viewer Wow factor yet. Of course, it's a bit cumbersome to continue into the modern digital era. I too hope Lume makes it, none of us wants another 3d failure. My take is... for this to sell in the commercial sector, the WOW factor has to be very compelling today vs. yesteryear for the reasons you state. WOW = FOV, depth and IQ (resolution and contrast). The multi angle view is of course helpful. From the reviews I read here so far, it seems the WOW factor is just OK....when combined with the price point, it will require quite the marketing effort to penetrate the commercial sector. The avg consumer today has such high expectations due to the brilliance of PC displays and tv's. IMO, a large wall mounted 3d display that can continuously show 3d advertising would have more appeal, as it can run 24/7 with no intervention for customer or business vs. a small display. Anyway, success comes from a mix of product quality, price and MARKETING, hopefully Lume will get their 3d pad into their markets, so as to invest into next generation products.
On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:23 AM John Clement <clement@...> wrote:
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Re: STMANI3 - A tool for stereo alignment
#alignment
#workFlow
Stereopix Net
Installation on 32-Bit computer fails with the x86_64-linux-gnu problem. Do you have a more precise error message? If it can help, the doc of py3exiv2 says that it needs python-all-dev (≥ 3.2), libexiv2-dev (≥ 0.20), libboost-python-dev (≥ 1.48), g++ to build [I guess it is the name of the debian packages] JackDesBwa Have installed 3 times STMANI3 on Linux Mint 19.3 Mate 64-Bit computers successfully!
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Re: Lume Pad Evaluation: SERIOUS LIMITATION
John Clement
I keep on seeing that Lume is designed as a commercial device to advertise products. But can it fly with such a limited use? Will advertisers buy into it for that use? Now there has been in the past things like lenticular illuminated displays in bars. These were relatively cheap and there is little evidence that they influenced customers. Since 3D has been dissed by so many critics and there are 3D-allergic individuals, I find it doubtful that it can fly with such a limited usage. Yes it is novel and a niche device. View-Master and Holmes cards survived for a very long time because there was no alternative to them. Now with the cheap pads showing videos in color and Ads on phones there are plenty of alternatives. Virtual walk through reality on a flat screen is a big alternative.
At one time advertisers made VM reels of their products, but they had extremely limited distribution, so they often go for fancy prices now. The movie souvenir reels are another example of this. Admittedly 3D can be used to enhance architectural displays and medical imaging, but the current methods of manipulating these images are very good and the pros are used to them. As you can see I am doubtful about this device flying. History is against it. VM survived as a niche kids toy, but the Lume is too expensive and would probably end up just being a 2D game toy for most. However it is nice that they are giving us great toys once they are on closeout prices.
John M. Clement
From: main@Photo-3d.groups.io <main@Photo-3d.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill G
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 2:08 PM To: main@photo-3d.groups.io Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] Lume Pad Evaluation: SERIOUS LIMITATION
Thx Linda for a very detailed review of the LumePad. First, I am not knocking this product in anyway, like you mentioned, it's nice there is options out there. It seems if you want to view 3d completely unaided, such as LumePad, the view will never be high resolution vs. SBS with lenses, or even higher resolution 4K or hopefully 8K tvs with 3d glasses of some type. For the intended purpose of the Lumepad, which was to show food, point of use for commercials, etc. It's a novel niche product. But for those of us chasing high resolution 3d viewing, on par with MF film viewers or better, the dual 4k screen wheatstone remains the current holy grail for now. I read that 8k phone screens are now possible, which may or may not make it into phones (prob. for VR headsets).... if these screens develops so available in a wheatstone, utopia will have arrived.
On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 7:31 PM Depthcam via groups.io <depthcam=yahoo.ca@groups.io> wrote:
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Re: Lume Pad Evaluation: SERIOUS LIMITATION
John Clement
Yes, if they can’t make a phone that will appeal to the masses as well as the 3D addicts, they are sunk. Yes, I am skeptical after looking at the history of 3D and photography. My prediction will have, I am sure, no effect on their sales. So far Rokit has continued to provide updates, so it is the most successful or perhaps optimistic 3D device purveyor. The lack of a microsd slot is a big deficit for many people. 3D needs lots of space if you want to have both pictures and movies on your primary display device. Cloud storage can be iffy and expensive, so local storage is a must.
My Realist format photography lasted from 1962 to 2010 until the demise of Kodachrome. I could always get my cameras fixed and they worked perfectly. One wishes for such longevity in this era of device du jour. I could still rekindle them with poorer quality film.
John M. Clement
From: main@Photo-3d.groups.io <main@Photo-3d.groups.io> On Behalf Of Linda N
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 2:48 PM To: main@photo-3d.groups.io Subject: Re: [Photo-3d] Lume Pad Evaluation: SERIOUS LIMITATION
My two initial gripes with the Lume (pronounced "Loom") Pad which I received a few days ago are 1) the lack of a microSD slot (which is present on every other Android device I own). I was initially unable to access external content with a usb A thumb drive and the supplied adapter, but was able to do so later from a card reader with usb C connector. But having a drive sticking out of the tablet is much more clumsy than an internal slot. And total built in storage is only 128 gb.
2) the low resolution of the ST (stereo) and 4V modes on the device. Others have mentioned the pixel grid or window screen appearance seen in these modes but they apparently are not bothered by this. I find it quite noticeable, in part because I tend to view at about 14" (which is a comfortable focusing distance for me without glasses) rather than the recommended distance of 16-20". I do not see this "window screen" effect at all when viewing on any of my other glasses-free 3D displays including the much older 10.1" Freevi/Commander 3D, with overall resolution of 1920 x 1200. It all looks sharp and smooth to my eye in 3D. Different technology.
When viewing the supplied images in ST then 4V on the Lume Pad, I noticed that the "window screen" appearance seemed milder with ST display and more pronounced with 4V, presumably because resolution was half in ST and one fourth in 4V mode, of the basic 2560X1600 resolution? Of course the window screen effect is also more noticeable on certain plainer backgrounds, and on the playing card image there was a pronounced jaggedness on the card edges, especially diagonal edges.
In general, I personally thought that most images (theirs and mine) looked better in ST mode than 4V. Full depth, and no artifacts from the creation of the extra views, which were sometimes a problem. I would prefer a sharper full depth image rather than the ability to move my head around to different viewing angles, with less overall depth. One exception among my own images was one with way too much depth (foreground too close) , that looked better in 4V.
I noticed that the most recent upgrade of Leia Player on my Red Hydrogen One allows one to stay in ST (stereo) mode, and/or to choose from 2D ST and 4V with a single click without having to scroll through all the choices everytime you advance to another image or want to make a comparison. I hope that the Lume Pad version will have this ability soon, rather than reverting to 4V each time and requiring one to scroll through the 3 options when making a change.
I am glad that there is a new "3D" tablet option out there now, compatible with stereo viewing, even though "we " are not their main target market. Linda N
On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:15 AM Herb Weiner <herbw@...> wrote:
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Re: STMANI3 - A tool for stereo alignment
#alignment
#workFlow
p_thoele
Have installed 3 times STMANI3 on Linux Mint 19.3 Mate 64-Bit computers successfully!
Installation on 32-Bit computer fails with the x86_64-linux-gnu problem. Installation on Ubuntu Studio 20 is starting the STMANI-GUI. It is complaining about missing restore-trash sudo apt-get install trash-cli does not help. I leave that open. Paul
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Re: STMANI3 - A tool for stereo alignment
#alignment
#workFlow
Stereopix Net
Does that mean STMANI3 is working only on 64-Bit Linux Systems? The reference to the architecture x86_64 is in the "Possible Installation Issues" section. This comes from the installation/compilation of the dependency "py3exiv2" which is problematic for some systems because of the path of the boost library. The program itself is written in python3 and depends on numpy, opencv-python, Pillow and py3exiv2, plus some programs called directly ("exiftool" is the one coming in mind). As long as your architecture accepts those programs, STMANI3 will probably work. JackDesBwa
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Luminar AI Photo Editor
Philip Heggie
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